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Practical Suggestions

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Joined on 20 十月 2006
Total posts: 1,137

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月28日 8:33

Dear Bossa Nova

Can I say welcome and I do hope that you will become a regular contributor.

However I would respectfully ask that you read my words a little more carefully and correctly quote me also that you accept I know something about regulations of numbers in halls**, competition organisation, events being cancelled through lack of entries, immigration matters,   etc.  If I did not then I would make no comments and avoid totally..

** It is fairly obvious things are not quite right when one day of an event half the seats are occupied and the second day less than a quarter are occupied. The audience is not turning out. The same audience who did the previous day.  

 

If you believe that the report of Mr. Bain the IDSF 1st Vice President and Policy Diurector was inconsequential that is your right.  I on the other hand believe that to Mr. Bain it was important. To the IDSF it was important and to the many people who tried to stop it being delivered it was important.. I also believe that for the good of dance it was an extremely important document.

 

Let me then go lower down your comments.................the 2008 World IDSF Latin Championships the exact words used were "- the showcase event the World Latin Championship".  That was my point.

 

I have never denigrated any Australian dancer and have neither the desire nor intention.  That was precisely why I inserted that no one should be offended. 

I am not interested in passports or which country has the greatest impact.rather what is good for dance.  Since you mention it the "passport" business is one of the prime reasons why I never want to see dancing in the Olympics.  Our dance world is a unique one and people disregard a partners  nationality/religion/race in the forming of their partnerships. The only important issue is whether they make a good partnership.  Others could so learn from this.

I have been a dance lover for more years than I want to remember and believe me I know only too well that countries will have their highs and their lows.  The danceworld of today is very different to that of past years.  I have made that statement many times on this forum.

However there are some who are blaming the current "low point" in British Competitors on the British system.  There are those who claim that the current Australian System is producing higher quality dancers and Britain should adopt the Australian way.. You will read that in the posts on this topic.

If this were indeed fact then I would like these people to tell me who the next Australian British Open Champions will be.  Australian dancers achieved this several times in the past under what were so called "bad" policies.  Reading the words about the higher quality I have checked

A) The Dancesportinfo net ratings which are far more accurate than IDSF ones and find that in Standard Australia has one couple (35th place) in the top 100 dancers in the world.  In the Latin there are 2 at 14th and 33rd places.

B) The results of 2007 IDSF World Championships.   Let me list them. 

Amateur Latin Joint17th and joint 58th from 76. Amateur Standard 52nd and 57th from 75,

Amateur 10 dance 10th from 29. 

Youth Latin NO competitors   Youth Standard 38th  from 65  Youth 10 dance 16 from 35.

Junior 11 Latin NO Competitors  Junior 11 Standard 39th from 65  Youth 10 dance 10th  from 34

Senior 1 Latin 31st from 37  Senior 1 Standard 37th from 41.

Every one of these couples can be proud of their achievment, I am delighted that they continue to compete and do not think if I cannot win I will not compete. The standard today worldwide is incredibly high but please do not claim that one system is producing higher quality dancers than in the past. 

 For me it is not an endorsement of current policies when a country has no representatives in a World Championship and especially when it is at Junior and Youth level as these are the FUTURE. 

 

People should not claim that thanks to the "new" system the numbers are up etc when events at a major championship probably the most important of the year are being cancelled through lack of entries. 

 

I am surprised that you believe DanceSport Australia has no connection with the Swiss system introduced a few  years ago but in fact is modelled on the British Dance Council. If that is your interpretation please go ahead.  I think others will be just as surprised as me.

 

Immigration.  Please might I say because you personally do not know about something does not mean it did not happen.  There are those who know very well the accuracy of my words but I am not going to betray confidential information given to me on trust just to prove I know what I am writing.  The one good thing AND i SAY THIS WITH RESPECT IS I believe is that you show so very accurately the thinking of many - I do not know that so it did not happen.  That is a shame there is so much that happens and people are unaware and do not wish to know and do not want to believe... . 

As  I wrote at the start.  Welcome to the forums. Please become a regular contributor and disagree with me as much as you wish.  I am always willing to be convinced on the errors of my knowledge  and beliefs.

 

 

Joined on 20 十月 2006
Total posts: 1,137

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月28日 10:13

Dear keggs

Thank you for giving me your interpretation of what the BDC should be but it raises more questions.

I will make a few general comments on points you have made and then return to the BDC aspect.

 

When I write to you I feel like I am walking on egg shells so please forgive my next words.  Rightly or wrongly you give me the impression that until you read simplydancers glowing reports on te Australian Utopia you did not know very much about it but now you think it is almost the perfect solution for Britain. I am not sure how you reached your conclusion that standards under the new system are so much higher than ever before with the bad old ways.

I hope you will note that another Australian Bossa Nova is quite firm that DanceSport Australia is modelled on the British Dance Council.  Quite a variation in opinion.

Whether you believe me or not is not important but other countries have carefully investigated the dance scene which exists in Australia today and have concluded that in its entirety it is not form them. The best aspect from my angle is that until you are qualified then you are not accepted as especially not as a competent Professional.

 

I have something which to me is interesting to interject now.

This can be read on the web site for the Tatersalls 2007 Australian Championships-

****************************

Update - 26 August, 2007

International coaching

A number of our international guests will be conducting lessons during their stay at in Melbourne.

The following coaches will be conducting 45 min lessons. They are available to teach at a location of your choice (floor space fees will apply);

Giancarlo Barbieri - 80 Euros for individual lessons

Louise Barbieri - 80 Euros for individual lessons

Greg Smith - 100 Euros for individual lessons

Marco Cavallaro - 50 Euros for individual lessons

Joanne Clifton - 50 Euros for individual lessons

Benedetto Ferruggia - 60 Euros for individual lessons. Teaching at Bagheera's the Dance Place only.

Claudia Kohler - 60 Euros for individual lessons. Teaching at Bagheera's the Dance Place only.

Peter Stokkebroe - 75 Euros for individual lessons, and 110 Euros for group lessons

Kristina Juel - 75 Euros for individual lessons, and 110 Euros for group lessons

For further information or to book a lesson please contact

theaustralian@iprimus.com.au or phone 03 9510 7770

 ***************************************

Marco and Joanne represent England ar members of EADA.  Are they qualified to teach internationally?  Are they acting in accordance with the EADA rules? Did DanceSportAustralia inform EADA of the situation and obtain agreement?

 

 

If you would like to know more about the BDC approach to EADA regarding participation in the Ceremonies surrounding the 2012 Olympics then contact Mr. Bryan Allen.

 

I was fascinated when you wrote

 It also brings home what one poster wrote recently "It's the only customer services where the customer is always wrong."

I have never perceived dance as a "Service" industry.  Of course I understand the dance business  means different things to different people. For some it is Sport, for others Educational, or  Recreationa/Social or Cultural and for some Entertainment and now we have Service.. 

 

Back to the BDC. and my views

Have you visited their website and read what they believe they are there for?  I have less confidence in them at this momnent than ever before but I believe they have achieved much of what they see as their function.

1a.  Is this not impossible?  There are (or were) only Twp International Bodies.  One for Professionals and One for Amateurs. The BDC quite rightly allowed the Amateurs to belong to their Intžernational Federation.  I believe however that with the change in dance politics the BDC must change and remove the compulsion to be an EADA member and allow Amateurs to choose which Amateur Body they will join

1b. Please elaborate. As I have already said I have less faith today than ever before and I believe they should take a much firmer stand.

1c. The BDC is a "broad church" and generally it has done a good job in the padst in walking the road that is going to be broadly acceptable to all the "congregation".  Personally I see no impartial attitude.  I realise that the "Amateurs Teaching" is a huge bone of contention but in all seriousness I think teaching is a Professional activity a means of deriving income and if this is what people want then join the Professionals.  I know people will say theyy have few competitions but is it not highly possible that if so many "Amateurs" converted to "Professional" then there would be a huge increase in "Professional" competitions? If there is a market then the entrepreneurs will meet that market, I think it is true that almost as One the Top Coaches would not object to "teaching" but the many smaller teachers all over the country who first involve and introduce people to our dance world most certainly would..  The BDC cannot ignore these people - or would do so at their peril.

 

1d. I will not dwell on the "sports development" for obvious reasons and should be pleased to learn the "strategies" you think they should be developing.  Should not each member organisation be responsible for its own development - each society be working with its own members to promote and expand?  If you study the members you will see some who are doing great service for dance and dancers.  . 

1e.  Does any dance organistaion - national or international - pour money back into debeloping dancing at the grass roots?

Do you know that in promoting one World event the BDF suffered a loss exceeding 30,000 Pounds?. It was thanks to the sponsor Freed that this did not become a disaster for them. 

 

1f. 

This is going to be a long one!!

Both you and I have written about "Democracy" and I am starting to wonder just what this means.  For me it meant everyone having a voice, a right and in one sense a vote.  I am coming to realise that this is never going to be possible.

I suspect that as in governmental activities many people will ignore their voting rights and the activists will carry the day.  Of course the non voters will still complain.   To really be able to make an informed choice one needs to have all the information - and this they are never going to be give,.

You will have the "donkey" syndrome.  I do not care it is a donkey because it stands for the group I support.and I am simply not interested in anyother group

By the way  Australia (again Smile) has a compulsory governmental election systtem.  However how do you force someone to vote rather than "spoil" their voting paper if that is their choice.  British prisons are already overflowing and it is doubtful they could cope with the huge increase in potential "criminals"Smile

Is it not a fact that members of the BDC for instance the ISTD, the IDTA, the Promoters Association elect in a democratic way their President and Officers?  Do these people not then nominate/elect  those who will serve on the BDC?

How far would your idea of democracy extend?  Would it be restricted in some way? Would it be a vote for every person involved in dance from the lowly begineer upward?.

 

2.  Are you suggesting that England, Wales and Scotland should each be allowed to have multiple national groups representing the Amateurs and not be compelled to join EADA etc?  I completely agree that the time has come for the WDC Amateur League Registration to be acceptable in all 3 regions certainly I have no objection to EADA losing their monopoly and dancers having the chance to form their own clubs and each club having the right to sit on BDC and their members registration be accepted. .I even agree that the time has come for EADA to decide where their loyalties lie if they believe IDSF is the answer then follow that road but do so independent of the BDC and their members..The first casualty would be the ordinary competitors.  Because the bulk of the competitions would not be sanctioned by the IDSF national body IDSF members could not compete and those who did would be banned from other countries.

 

Does life not become complicated !!

Joined on 24 十二月 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月28日 11:14

Dear Polkadancer

You have brought up a lot of issues which is going to take me some time to digest and respond to, so forgive me if I seem to take a long time. I'll comment over several posts.

In the meantime, can I ask that everyone following this thread keep to the topic. I created this thread not for me to spout my views but to ask for suggestions on how Britain can improve its dancing position. This can be anything from reforming the BDC to coming up with ideas of getting people involved in dancing - social as well as competitive.

My ideas (and I appear to be only one here coming up with anything concrete) are just that ideas. Others may have better ideas. So please suggest them.

The thread appears once again to have degenerated into charge, counter charge and argument. Three pages have been devoted to nonsense. I put forward an intial idea for discussion which I thought was beginning to bear fruit then the discussion changed to the usual banter. That's not what this thread was created for. I repeat, can you restrict it to making practical suggestions. Surely, there are ideas used in other countries which could be adopted and adapted to Britain.

If you are a British dancer, what would YOU like to see happen? Is there anything you would like changed, improved?

Finally, I don't intend to get into a debate about the DSA. Simplydancer responded to a request I made and I am grateful to him or her for doing that. From his comments and my own personal research I concluded that the system now in operation is one which I feel coincides with what I have wanted to see happen in Britain for 20 years. Whether this is considered a failure or not is not under discussion. What is under discussion is whether their system or aspects of it can be adopted and adapted for Britain. If you think it can then say so. If not suggest an alternative. But give me and others a break by not stating that the status quo is still OK. As far as I'm concerned it's the status quo that has has and is still cvausing problems in Britain (and probably elsewhere). That said, if everyone suggests the status quo is still the best then this thread requires no further discussion. In which case, dancing in Britain will continue on its downward spiral.

Regards
Steve

So, please can we get back to talking about practical suggesions. If you have got any please offer them up for discussion.

Regards
Steve




Joined on 20 十月 2006
Total posts: 1,137

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月28日 12:03

Dear keggs

Take as long as you like.  If you wish to make no response that is also O.K.

 

You are witnessing the aparthy that exists.  As Elaine and I have stated most do not care under which system or Authority they dance.  You must have noted previously that many people simply do not respond on British (English) Political Dance issues.  Many have no interest in "the politics" even though it is the "Politics" that govern every aspect of their dance. Several times I have been told that people "do not care" or have "no interest in politics" and no wish to learn-

I also believe that the majority of dancers (social and competitive) have respect for their Teaches/Coaches who are Professionals.

Because of this respect competitors follow the advice the guidlines the interest in them and leadership given to them by their own coaches   The ordinary competitor is happy with this situation.

A very far cry from bad Professionals trying to control the Amateurs. 

SORRY that this is not a Practical Suggestion.

With great respect I must also say that if on a forum you expect to dictate the contributions members make you are going to be very disappointed- 

 

Please please do not misunderstand me BUT I do wonder

If you have been wanting something for 20 years and it has not happened why you think you can brinjg about this change now

 

Even if you had 100 Practical Suggestion how you would use those suggestions to bring the change you want to see.

 

Joined on 04 十二月 2007
Total posts: 25

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月28日 12:21

Dear Polkadancer,
you have very conveniently forgotten Blackpool 2007: Amateur Rising star 1st and 5th,
Amateur Rising Star Ballroom 2nd, Prof. Ballroom Semifinalist in 2 dances.
 
When a country like Australia has no representatives in some World Championships it is due to high cost of travel and not because of current policies. It would be very interesting to see how many junior/youth couples would attend World Championships in Australia if the parents had to pay for airline tickets.

It certainly was not me and I can't remember reading it in another post that one or the other system is producing higher quality dancers. I was merely stating the fact that the number of registered competition dancers in Australia is increasing due to the policies of the DSA where the amateurs and professionals work together in ONE body.

Maybe there were others but one event which was canceled was Over 50years Level 4 Latin.
Total 680 couples entered. Most of them competed in multiple events. Last year 610 couples competed. At the final night there were not many empty seats in the 8000 capacity stadium.
There was 2 hours telecast on the major commercial channel from these championships.

Have a good Silvester and Happy New Year.


Joined on 20 十月 2006
Total posts: 1,137

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月28日 12:36

Dear simplydancer

I did not comveniently forget anything I was well aware of the placings in the British Open 2007.

I stated that there were couples with the potential to make an impact on the World scene.

 

ADDED 29th December.

The Rising Stars at Blackpool already excludes the top 24 from the previous year-  So far as the winners of the RS Amateur Latin I felt I gave them greater credit in including their DanceSportinfo rating and IDSF World Championship placing.  How many times does one count the same couple?

So far as the 5th placed couple in the RS Amateur Latin at Blackpool - well in the 2007 IDSF World  Latin they represented New Zealand.

Joined on 24 十二月 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月28日 13:43

Hi Plkadancer

I quite agree with you - my God! Which is one reason I decided to create this thread. Most dancers as you say are apathetic. And right again when you say the 'politics' determines everything but people are apethitic towards this even though it affects them directly. That's why I get fed up with people who moan and are not prepared to do anything about it.

But here's there chance to have a moan and not feel at all sorry for it. And perhaps others such as yourself could could up with suggestions that move us just that little bit further. Afterall, that's how the BDC itself started. It doesn't need a huge number of people to change things - it just needs one simple idea which a few could agree to. They in turn can spread the word. This is how all the great religions of the world did. It's how things do change. And my idea - actually there's 2: democracy and equality of opportunity and promotion and development. Big subjects I know, but I have to start somewhere.Big Smile

I also agree with your last statement, but all I want is one practical idea that most people could at least give some thought to and which maybe, just maybe actually motivates them to get off their backsides and campaign for. It might just surprise them that 'politics' in dancing can be exciting.

May also apologise to you on behalf off Simplydancer. I did ask that personal antagonisims should be left outside this thread.

Come on folk, even if you can't think of a single suggestion let's here your gripes. It might just spark something in someone. In other words get your moans off your chest. Who is to know who you are?

Best wishes
Steve
Joined on 19 一月 2005
Total posts: 117

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月28日 22:09

keggs:
Hi Plkadancer

I quite agree with you - my God! Which is one reason I decided to create this thread. Most dancers as you say are apathetic. And right again when you say the 'politics' determines everything but people are apethitic towards this even though it affects them directly. That's why I get fed up with people who moan and are not prepared to do anything about it.


What is the average age of an amateur conmpetitor on the Intenational circuit these days...maybe around 22 years old. Do you honnestly think they have time to spend on politics ??? when this activity is so moving so fast...you are competing one day with a good partner...who knows if you will dancing next year...money, job, studies; debts. These guys have other things to do and who would listen to them anyway as we are being told that dancing is not a business like any other where the customer is always wrong !

It is up to the people who have responsibilities to do their job properly...but I don't mind creating the first union of dancers...if it can help to make the guys in charge do their job.

 

Joined on 12 五月 2007
Total posts: 7

Re: Practical Suggestions

2007年12月30日 14:47

If you want to create a "think-tank" do not insult me Keggs by calling me Plkadancer !

Suggest-   Lets put our pathetic heads together and lead the apathetic busy-body young dancers out of the misery and into the  promise land.

Let embrace your idea:  since you  "don't mind creating the first union of dancers...if it can help to make the guys in charge do their job".

Great idea, lets make them guys in charge do their jobs ! Brilliant idea,  why haven't  I proposed it, unless, think of it,  I had Huh?)  

What's next ?

 

 

 

Joined on 20 十月 2006
Total posts: 1,137

Re: Practical Suggestions

2008年1月15日 13:51

Dear keggs

 

I hope that you have discovered some truths from this topic.

It is always important to note the number of posts a person has made-

What is really needed a change in attitude by many many people including a democratic acceptance of what the great Majority of the people in the business desire.

el cordobes made some very valid comments which shoud be considered and taken on board by everyone who wants the best for dancing..

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